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utsfl:classroom:seminars:pba301h [2016/10/07 10:17] – balleyneutsfl:classroom:seminars:pba301h [2021/03/18 20:59] (current) – some notes on the Fellows debate with YPY balleyne
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 This is bad news for abortion advocates. Many become anti-science or try to shift the question. This is bad news for abortion advocates. Many become anti-science or try to shift the question.
  
 +===== Misapplying Terms =====
 +
 +  * FIXME Dr. Fellows debate with Maaike on March 18, 2021:
 +    * He was conflating the term "[[wp>Live Birth (human)|live birth]]" with "being alive"
 +    * "Live birth" doesn't mean you're not alive until you're born, it just means you were born alive
 +    * He's misapplying a term from OB/GYN to embryology
 +    * He contradicted himself by using terms like "fetal death" or "kill"
 +  * FIXME people confuse viability with vitality
 +
 +===== Anti-Science Doubt =====
 The author of the CSB328H textbook apparently contests that there is a clear scientific answer((http://gerardnadal.com/2010/01/07/more-from-the-scientific-community-on-the-identity-and-status-of-the-human-embryo/#comment-390)), even while taking the view that fertilization is the creation of a new organism. The author of the CSB328H textbook apparently contests that there is a clear scientific answer((http://gerardnadal.com/2010/01/07/more-from-the-scientific-community-on-the-identity-and-status-of-the-human-embryo/#comment-390)), even while taking the view that fertilization is the creation of a new organism.
  
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 > >
 > (Scott Gilbert:)No. There are several scientifically defensible positions as to when human life begins. One position is that human life begins when the human egg and sperm nuclei fuse at fertilization. This is the “genetic view.” A second position is that human life begins when the embryo becomes an individual. This is the time, 14 days after fertilization, when each embryo can produce only one individual, rather than twins or triplets. In religious terms, this would mean that ensoulment (whatever that may be) must occur after day 14, since twins are separate individuals. In the United Kingdom, this 14-day “embryologic view” of human individuality is the basis for human biological research, and it has been adopted by the entire biomedical research community there. It has the force of law in the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority that licenses and governs Britain’s embryo and stem cell research. A third position is that human life begins when the human-specific electroencephalogram (EEG) is acquired at around 25 weeks. Since our society has defined human death as the loss of the EEG pattern (and not, say, when the heart stopping or the cells dye), some scientists have argued that the acquisition of this EEG pattern be considered the time when the fetus becomes human. The fourth position is that human life begins when it can be metabolically independent from the mother, the traditional “birthday.” So there are several scientifically defensible positions as to when a new human life begins” > (Scott Gilbert:)No. There are several scientifically defensible positions as to when human life begins. One position is that human life begins when the human egg and sperm nuclei fuse at fertilization. This is the “genetic view.” A second position is that human life begins when the embryo becomes an individual. This is the time, 14 days after fertilization, when each embryo can produce only one individual, rather than twins or triplets. In religious terms, this would mean that ensoulment (whatever that may be) must occur after day 14, since twins are separate individuals. In the United Kingdom, this 14-day “embryologic view” of human individuality is the basis for human biological research, and it has been adopted by the entire biomedical research community there. It has the force of law in the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority that licenses and governs Britain’s embryo and stem cell research. A third position is that human life begins when the human-specific electroencephalogram (EEG) is acquired at around 25 weeks. Since our society has defined human death as the loss of the EEG pattern (and not, say, when the heart stopping or the cells dye), some scientists have argued that the acquisition of this EEG pattern be considered the time when the fetus becomes human. The fourth position is that human life begins when it can be metabolically independent from the mother, the traditional “birthday.” So there are several scientifically defensible positions as to when a new human life begins”
 +
 +See also:
 +  * [[https://www.wired.com/2015/10/science-cant-say-babys-life-begins/|Science Can't Say When a Baby's Life Begins]]
  
 ===== Scientific Debate? ===== ===== Scientific Debate? =====
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 The acquisition of the pattern is an age-dependent feature of human development. This is just the level of development error in SLED. The EEG pattern doesn't tell us when a new individual human organism has come into existence, just when they are old enough for their brain to function at this particular level. The acquisition of the pattern is an age-dependent feature of human development. This is just the level of development error in SLED. The EEG pattern doesn't tell us when a new individual human organism has come into existence, just when they are old enough for their brain to function at this particular level.
  
 +  * Using the definition of death to mark the beginning of life
 +        * cardio-pulmonary death is the legally recognized point
 +        * complete irreversible brain death (this specifically), when all coordinated functioning for the overall good of that human being ceases to exist, is how we can define death more accurately (most medically accurate)
 +        * fertilization is when we first //gain// that coordinating functioning
 ==== 14 days ==== ==== 14 days ====
 > A second position is that human life begins when the embryo becomes an individual. This is the time, 14 days after fertilization, when each embryo can produce only one individual, rather than twins or triplets. > A second position is that human life begins when the embryo becomes an individual. This is the time, 14 days after fertilization, when each embryo can produce only one individual, rather than twins or triplets.
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 >  > 
 > Gilbert can’t spin his way out of this one. All he can do is lay down a smokescreen to ingratiate himself with the widest audience of professors to induce their adopting his book for their courses. > Gilbert can’t spin his way out of this one. All he can do is lay down a smokescreen to ingratiate himself with the widest audience of professors to induce their adopting his book for their courses.
 +FIXME and even if there //were// uncertainty about when a human being's life begins...wouldn't that uncertainty actually be an [[http://www.prolifetraining.com/FiveMinute13.asp|argument against abortion]]? 
  
 ===== Philosophical Question? ==== ===== Philosophical Question? ====
-Some dodge the scientific question and claim that "when human life begins" is a philosophical question, not a question of science. +What Gilbert is actually doing is using his credentials as a biologist while advancing a philosophical question. Of course there's no scientific consensus on the question of when "personhood" begins - because that's not a scientific question (whether or not a biological human being should have moral status, etc). But there's a consensus as to when a new individual organism, same species as the parents, comes into existing, and Gilbert's own //Developmental Biology// sums it up nice in the very title of the chapter: "Fertilization: Beginning a New Organism." And our philosophical position ought to at least take into account what we know from science, but the philosophy is a topic for another time.
- +
-That's only partially true. +
- +
-Science can tell us where a biological human being begins, where a new individual organism of the human species comes into existence. That part is a question for science. +
- +
-The question of when that biological human being -- organism of the human species -- has value or rights or personhood, that is certainly a philosophical question.+
  
-The philosophical deliberations, however, need to take into account our knowledge from biology about when a new individual of the human species comes into existence.+Dr. Stacy Trasancos summarizes Scott F Gilbert's sleight of hand well: 
 +{{ :utsfl:classroom:seminars:biology_scott-f-gilbert_dr-stacy-trasancos_fertilization.mp4 |}}